Discussion Regarding Server-side Demos (and it's relation to Tremulous)


#1

congratulations, u have successfully volunteered to design, implement, test, deploy and announce the feature of server demos.


#2

What you have requested is close to impossible with our current resources. A demo could be recorded as part of the !demo command with a particular individual, but to record the gameplay of every connected player for every second is unfeasible.

Even massive game titles such as League of Legends have JUST got a feature like this. All previous records of games were web/text based.

I estimate to record a single day of demos it would take up approximately 10Gb* of storage space so within a couple of weeks we would have to start deleting older demos due to online data space limitations. Lets not forget half your cockfuck reports are old af cause you wanted to stack them all up, so even if we employed this system we would likely have deleted this demo already. Which reminds me PUT A COCKFUCKING DATE or timestamp on your reports and follow the report template.

*(based on the calculation that 1Mb of demo is approximately 1 minute of recording; a single connected player all day would take up over 1gb of data, 20 people playing for half the day would take up a similar amount of space. This is also assuming our current player base doesn't change)


#3

Spoiler, LoL always had every game recorded, you could then choose whether or not you'd want to save it. I suspect it's not saved anywhere and just disappears once you close the game though.

I have 30min demoes that are 500kbs actually iirc. Demo isn't a video format, it's just a bunch of 'code' that the game reads to reproduce a game.


#4

Found a 1 minute demo with 1000kb so used that as my base calculation.

I don't think this is true, clicking save this game would just save a caption of the scores. That's why people used third party recording software to rewatch their games to improve.

"The last time we talked about Replays was about a year ago in our first Riot Pls. At that time, a number of factors led us to deprioritize Replays. Since then, we’ve put a ton of love into League’s global infrastructure (for example creating Riot Direct), prompting us to revisit the conversation. At that point, we realized it was finally the right time for us to explore the feature." Riot Employee - 3 Months ago.

"Here’s how it works:
Download your replay from the End of Game Screen or Match History."

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/client/client-features/road-pre-season-replays-horizon

Would be nice if we could change that, not being able to view them online is a pain.


#5

A web-based demo viewer would be nice, with an actual chatroom and controls.

Wtf? Also, a serverside demo would record every player from the server's POV, so it'd be a lot more lightweight than you think, you just overcalculated everything pretty badly.

My bad, never used it but thought so.


#6

Yeah, I kinda agree. Although online storage was just one example of a multitude of problems we would run into when trying to employ this system.


#7

Server side demos is something that is on the 1.3 TODO. Tremfusion actually had an implementation of serverside demo recording and playback (although the playback in this implementation would "take up" the whole server so to speak, that is everyone on the server would see the same demo beign played back, and would not be able to play a game while it is on, but perhaps it would make sense to have a server dedicated to just playing back demos).


#8

crappy developers. every StarCraft game, ie. since 1998, has recording features.

WRONG. even assuming those size requirements:

  • don't forget that data compression exists: XZ can compress demos to ~2/3 the original size, so 2 weeks turn into 3 weeks.
  • my report times fit even within the 2-week time frame, being 0–14 days old.
  • this report was filed within 12 hours of the events happening.

why ?


#9

That's two games, and doesn't say a lot. (StarCraft BroodWar and Starcraft II WoL, HotS, and LotV expansions).

Unless by "starcraft games" you mean RTS games then demos are still not always present. Additionally comparing these games with that of a FPS isn't great. Most RTS game are limited to 8 players games, tremulous servers used to host up to 64 players.

Looking at the most recent and popular competitive FPS that is overwatch, it does not feature game replays. The only thing you can replay is a small "highlight" which features the "play of the game" (approximately 10 seconds of automated recording where a player did something good for the team). Only 3 plays can be saved at one time onto your profile for easy viewing and any future plays will overwrite the least recent.

Starcraft and Overwatch are made by the same Dev and Publishing company Blizzard entertainment.

Easier to search for evidence in the logs. Easier to match offence with ban log to see if they have been punished for this. etc.


#10

But regarding server side demos, it is something practical to do, yes it would greatly improve administrative tasks, and it is something that we do plan on implementing, but it isn't something that we have this moment. So for now, GrangerPub has to rely on client demos, when available, for supporting evidence where the server logs alone would not suffice.


#11

that's 1 game, and doesn't say a lot.

look who's comparing that 1 game to that of an FPS. (also, Tremulous is FPS–RTS, but whatever.)

as i said:

wtf ? so they can actually be saved, but saving is artificially limited ? that's fucktarded.

at most marginally. ie., unless the admin is an ultra-n00b, it's quicker to search all available logs for an obviously unique log line (typically some comment in chat), than to even post a question asking for a date; and even after that, u still have to find that log line.


#12

It does when it's the most played FPS in the world across all major platforms (PC/PS4/Xbone)

It's important to compare games of similar genres. I would not classify tremulous as an RTS. A game that really mirrors tremulous is Natural Selection 2. I have not played that game for some time but I know on release it did not feature replay systems.

It looks like you didn't quite get the message so lets look at some more examples.

Other big titles that are featured heavily on twitch (and so have a market for demos/replays) but still require third party recording software include ;-

World of Warcraft, MMORPG (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742515096)

Minecraft, FPS, Survival, Sandbox (https://www.replaymod.com/)

Hearthstone, CCG (https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4m3hux/best_software_for_replays/)

H1z1, Survival FPS (https://www.reddit.com/r/h1z1/comments/3dnvp8/recording_gameplay/) [Does however feature twitch integration for streaming purposes but has no dedicated replay or demo system]

League of Legends MOBA - BETA replays (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/2JWmR6sF-replays-are-live-in-the-new-client-faq-pro-tips)

Countless more examples can be provided if you think this still does not speak for it's self or say a lot.

Viewership numbers of gameplay and vods was taken from twitch at time of this post. Above games feature in the top 10. "Twitch is a live streaming video platform owned by Twitch Interactive, a subsidiary of Amazon.com"

The biggest titles are neglecting adding replays/demos and it took the #1 multiplayer PC game over 7 years to finally get a replay system in beta, and you think that someone (me) with little coding experience should look to implement replays into this dead mess of a game? You also think that this should be priority for such a dead mess of a game?

Define crappy developer. Their game has made them filthy rich and it's enjoyed, played and watched by millions across the globe. Makes me question your intentions as a game developer. It should be to provide a game platform that people enjoy, you seem to want to control the players in a game you develop. Your own little world where you play god.

Yes, likely due to data constraints. You don't live in the real world do you?

Any report featuring an incident older than 90 days is null and void. I'd love the chance to omit one of your countless cockfuck reports due to not meeting this condition.


#13

What the COCKFUCK™ am I even looking at

Minecraft, H1Z1, and WoW game length is unlimited, so it's fucking logical they don't propose this feature or even think about it. All of these games don't require admin demoes either. Most GPUs nowadays have integrated livestreaming/recording technology which is better suited for MMOs, survival FPS, and most games with no game length limits. Just imagine if everyone filmed their 4 hour long session and it had to be stored serverside, in an actual fucking video format. The ''valid games'' wouldn't even need to store any data serverside so I wonder why it hasn't been a feature all along.

Re: Tremulous' demoes aren't in a video format.


#14

WRONG.

H1z1 King of the Kill (the mode that has 40k+ viewers on twitch right now) has a limited game time where the fog encloses around players until death. I think your typical game is around 20 minutes

When mentioning WoW I am talking about the pvp mode known as arenas which I believe are 3 minutes long(fixed timer). Raid fights could also feature demos as they typically last 5-10 minutes, allow people to improve or spot out boosted players. Technically a game of tremulous on epic could last days. Battlegrounds, another PVP mode I think last for 10-20 minutes also.

I am not arguing against a good purpose for adding demos, especially in these games. I am arguing about their feasibility or priority.


#15

Yes, and L4D has survival mode aswell; but it is nowhere near necessary to record games serverside for admining or any other particular reason.

Again that'd better be a clientside feature.

And lol, gay ass pandaria/legion raids, back in the good extensions they lasted fucking hours.


#16

Colluding in that game is agasint the rules (depending on your queue) so monitoring players is useful to enforce that. You're also ignoring the big issue with hackers and cheaters in these games. Why are you arguing about something so blindly when you are clearly lacking so much information on this.

Raid griefers?

Minecraft? Do you know how many bigbrother mods and griefers that game has?


#17

Only fucktards get griefed in raid, that's what the 'loot modes' are designed for.

VAC

I'm trying to fucking sleep and I'm not in a mood to elaborate, just the fucktardation I'm reading is worth a reaction; and even without elaborated answers it's not hard to counter argument.

Who knows. (You'll probably notice since I'm answering in this post.)


#18

Only fucktards get tked in trem, thats what "kick votes" are designed for.

What about raid leader scammers with the loot?

THESE AREN'T FUCKING VALVE GAMES ARE YOU TROLLING ME RIGHT NOW?


#19

kthx. Come back to this thread when you aren't stoned, tired or both.

You replied to the same thing twice with the same response.

Your reason for aruging was "VAC" ???


#20

Loot mode is preventive, not to mention you'd usually raid with your guild (yeah, pandaria/legion is made with the dev's asses anyway)

Trem is filled with bugs and other retarded shit, the amount of griefing possible to pull is fucking insane; trem also has the advantage of having a file format that's light as fuck and would easily allow storing so much data into a web server/vps.

I've played wow a fuckton in my life and I've never suffered once from this issue.