GrangerPub's Burden of Proof Discussion

Nice try. This doesn’t change the burden of proof on the administration when people make inane claims, especially those that slander the reputation of other clans.

that’s a retarded remark, because „burden of evidence” refers to 2 competing sides wanting to present and prove opposing claims (eg., X is true vs X is false) in front of a „judge”, who has the power to decice and act, but no evidence for either claim. now, what if this judge had all the original, untampered evidence (ie. the proof), but fucked around with both sides by requiring them to present — possibly tampered — transcripts of the evidence, inherently requiring everyone to be vigilant about taking snapshots of each situation, plus permitting false evidence ? one word: retarded.

It would, if this was a court case and I was using the legal definition. That is not the case. When I was referencing “burden of evidence” I was referencing THIS, specifically:

When two parties are in a discussion and one asserts a claim that the other disputes, the one who asserts has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.

See the original claim I had issue with:

This wasn’t a claim in the realm of the administration to answer to, like it would for an admin abuse report. A claim was made against an entire clan based on a single incident. Just because the administration has server logs, doesn’t mean the responsibility of proving/disproving FK| is the Jewlumenatti is on GrangerPub.

That being said, I don’t see how this discussion can continue without derailing or dragging out the thread needlessly, seeing how the actual dispute has been resolved. If you wish to continue, simply PM me. I prefer that some other Moderator would decide if this discussion is worth splitting into it’s own thread (because I don’t).

j/k i was given the A-OK by a L9 to split this into it’s own thread, go crazy

Thus, in every single ban appeal thread, the burden of proof is on the admins who banned the user (the admins assert that the user broke the rules).

On the other hand, in an admin report thread, the burden of proof is on the user who claims to have been abused (the user asserts that the admin broke the admin rules). This also applies to a player report thread.

As a member of Fk|, I can confirm we are the Illjewminati.


WRONG. a user’s „report of an instance of abuse” is not a situation in which it is reasonable to use „burden of evidence” in the explained sense, but u r using „burden of evidence” in that sense.

exactly !

the job of the admin team is to help the community. this isn’t supposed to be a battle between users and admins (where admins admit „losses” only to avoid embarrassment due to the publicity of the discussions) (except if ur admins actions r being disputed, in which case this statement refers to only other admins).

WRONG. u r overinterpreting claims. it is a de-facto practice to describe a one-time story in a shorter, less-specific way, to embellish the statement with the speaker’s suspicion that similar stories may have happened too.

  • „Microsoft uses dirty market-tactics against small software companies” is a good (and punning!) way to describe that „at least 1 (unknown) internal decision maker forced some undisclosed employees of some department of Microsoft to perform some particular work on some particular day, that lead to an instance of at least 1 other software company complaining about suffering some amount of unfair market-share deficit”.
  • „Fk continuously abuses the kick command” is a good (and punning!) way to describe that „those members of Fk, that were on the server at the referenced time, committed multiple abusive kick actions against at least 1 victim (1 member of Fk issued the kick command, other members watched and enjoyed the „benefits” of the result without contesting the admin-action)”.

u r, in general, to look at and process each report. if u can easily do so, then also check whether the type of abuse has also been committed in the past, provided that there is suspicion that this could be true. otherwise, if necessary, ask the community (especially the reporter) to point out other instances of this type of abuse. ie., „has anyone seen such things ever happen (maybe other clan, other GH server, etc) ?”

yes, u r not required to go through all of the logs urself in an exhaustive search for clues on secreted jews. however, u’re too picky to even give ur due, minimal effort; and this mentality is true for the whole admin team. as in almost every case in the past, the verb „to prove” is a misnomer here, because it carries a sense of hard work to be done. this is not the case in general: all the admin has to do is to look at the logs (and all the player has to do is to reference the relevant parts of the logs) — any other arrangement of duties is a waste of effort. in this case, the claim was that „someone was repeatedly kicked off the server, by someone among a set of players that identify themselves as familiar”, which is easily verified via a glance at the logs.

i’ll repeat again: u r part of the community. u r acting against ur community by inducing superfluous effort by requiring regular users to perform stupid tasks, which relieves u of minimal effort, at the expense of extreme effort on part of other (regular user) members of the community.


what ? is that all u’ve got ? then act on it !

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