Without a single point of failure which also takes a lot of valuable space, players will be more free to build. Since build points are now limited, it will still be possible to win games.
This is an interesting concept to consider, and perhaps we should try it out sometime. Besides having various inconveniences in terms of game play, making major moves very difficult to pull off, the overmind and reactor has been some primary sources of griefing and bad moves since always. They make it easy for a single player (whether with malicious intent, or just a new player who doesn’t yet know the basics to building) to ruin an entire match at any point in the game if an admin isn’t fast enough to revert the damage.
There could be safety measures put in place, like for players that don’t have a high enough trust level yet, an automatic team vote would be called asking the team if it is ok for the om/rc to be deconned, and if it passes, allow the decon (I’ve heard that a/some mods have done that in the past). Or make deconning a process, where the team is notified that a specific player is attempting to decon, and the team has time to do something about it if it is a bad move. Such safety measures may decrease instance of griefing and bad moves, however I’m sure that they wouldn’t be fool proof, and at the point of actual decon, there could still be a lot of damage to a match. Putting griefing and bad moves aside, if it took additional time to deconstruct, that could be a hindrance to the flow of the game, where windows of opportunities might be missed in many instances.
Something else to consider, perhaps rather than completely removing the overmind/reactor, decrease the impact of their absence, For example allow a short period of time (maybe 20 or 30 seconds) where all buildables would still be powered without the om/rc (like a builtin “battery supply” for each buildable).
Maybe various/all aspects of the role of the overmind/reactor should be changed (we have assets for the two buildables, it would be a shame if they were wasted and not used for something). It will be interesting to see what kinds of possible altered/new roles the om/rc are brainstormed.
Here is another possibility to consider. What if the overmind and reactor core did not have the unique requirement (that is what if you could build more than one of each)? Additionally they would cost bp to build, and you would not be allowed to decon the last om/rc in the same way that you are not allowed to decon the last spawn.
Like have multiple big bases for maybe say big maps? Also why not have maybe something that can get building resources for possibilities like multiple mega/medium bases, ex: Mining Drill / Alien Extractor. There could be other methods of creating or getting more BP too. Also with this in mind big maps might be more usable if people are up to the task of building the base and getting it set up. Controlling X amount of bases or etc could have an outcome for the game ending too, as a little side note or game.
We are now testing the following changes on the GrangerLab server:
You can now build multiple overminds and reactors.
Overminds and Reactors currently cost 30 bp each.
Aliens can devolve into a granger without needing an overmind (evolving/devolving into any other class still requires the overmind).
I don’t yet have disallowing the decon of the last overmind/reactor, I’m not yet sure if that is the way to go.
I think granger and ckit should have an “adjust” feature that allows then to slowly move buildings without deconstructing them. For example, this will be useful in ATCS, where the reactor, telenodes and the overmind start at ALMOST good positions, but still too far from the wall to be safe (a human can go behind the overmind, and marauders can jump on top of the reactor and use it to shield themselves against turret fire).
Another idea: allow building multiple defense computers! They should improve lock-on capabilities of turrets (this may or may not stack with multiple DCs), indicated by an integrated circuit icon over the turret’s health bar. They should also report when any structure in its range is under attack, and you should be able optionally name them.
Something I’m a bit worried about removing the Reactor and Overmind completely. Doing so might break building a little bit. And by little bit, I mean a lot. The game is mostly centered around them. Removing them is like removing the Earth’s Core. (Yes fighting is a huge part of the game, but without a base, fighting is as useless as trying to decipher my thoughts ( ).)
I would gladly be fine with testing it, but maybe not removing them completely, I’d say we could maybe have a use of them like a source of upgrades or possibly a boost of stats as long as it’s working. This way, it would still be a good thing to destroy it whilst still being a good and powerful advantage over the enemy if kept protected.
As it turns out, there are some annoying aspects to having multiple overminds/reactors, for example building multiple reactors/overminds to block entrances. Also having them cost 30 bp (which is a must for multiple reactors/overminds, otherwise if they cost less, they would be spammed a lot more often), is annoying in cases where you might have something like 27 bp left, unable to rebuild an om, and could have otherwise build an egg or two. So it is time to try a new update:
Only at most one overmind and one reactor can be built again.
The cost of an overmind and the cost of a reactor has been reduced to 10 bp.
Almost all buildables now have each a “built in battery power supply” where they can remain powered for X (25 seconds for most buildables currently, 30 seconds for the teleporter) amount of time without a power source.
Alien buildables now have each a creep reserve that allow them to survive up to 8 seconds without any creep source, before dying.
Both the GrangerLab server and the Unitremia server now have these latest updates.
Those updates are a part of this commit:
English is not my native language, so correct me if I’m wrong. You can lose only 2 RC/OM? Only twice and then you can’t rebuild it? If so… then it’s hitting the balance. Two success rushes by normal team and ‘gg’, lol. I know that buildables have a lot of HP, but it’s not that hard, really.
I think I was a bit unclear, sorry about that. What I mean is in the previous update we made it so that you could have multiple overminds and reactors existing simultaneously, while with this latest update we went back to allowing only at most one overmind/reactor at a time existing for each team (the way most previous Tremulous plays handled instances of the overmind/reactor). Since the overmind/reactor currently costs 10 bp each, you do have a restriction via the bp reserve on the number of times you can rebuild, but it should still be numerous enough (better than when it was costing 30 bp).
In other words, if the overmind is down, and aliens have at least 10 bp available for use, an alien builder would be able to rebuild an overmind, while if there is currently an overmind built, another overmind can’t be built at the same time. Same applies to the reactor for human builders.
Oh, now all clear and sounds good enough to me. Thanks!
I would think that there are some very important reasons for and against having RCs and OMs.
- Currently the RC/OM serves no real purpose except being a pre-requisite for building and structure functions.
- The RC/OM is a bit like the “civic center” in 0ad except it provides not useful worker spawning ability.
- The RC/OM is too bulky and difficult to kill to allow more than one, people will just use them as ad hoc barricades. Humans do not have a barricade structure, and the alien barricade is easily taken out.
- The RC/RM does force teams to choose one location for their bases and all others to be a forward.
- There is a problem logically speaking: if building requires an RC, how can an RC be built without an existing RC to power building the new RC. If structures must be powered by the RC how can telenodes still work?
- How can any alien be alive and functional without a connection to their hive mind? Obviously the OM does not actually function as an overmind as it does not actually guide alien movements and minds. The OM is not as functional as the OM in Starcraft.
- How can grangers build, and eggs work without the overmind if no other structures do? Are these structures magically exempt from power/mind link requirements? If they are exempt why cant the species figure out how to do that with other structures?
Here are the advantages and ideas I have regarding the elimination/replacement of reactors and overminds.
- people would be more likely to expand bases if there were not a single point of weakness. This could make the game much more dynamic.
- repeaters and eggs could act as like miniature overminds and RCs and take slightly longer to build.
- Purchasing upgrades at the RC makes no sense as I don’t purchase upgrades at my town power company. Purchasing upgrades at the OM could make sense but it adds another layer of complexity to the game.
- armory already is a place where upgrades should be purchased
- lifesupport should not be necessary if humans can walk about without helmets and not die
- if a hive mind link is required aliens should die the instant the OM dies: if half my brain suddenly stopped working I could not type or walk much less be combat effective
- The idea a race with teleporters, power cells, plasma cannons, and similar could not be mobile seems odd. The idea they could not all carry or build small suit case sized nuclear nano-reactor cells is bizzare. Repeaters could replace reactors well.
- camping would be harder if the enemy could simply reloacate and attack from several fronts. If build points are limited each turret and tube becomes a possible loss of BP.
- repeaters should explode more violently. When alien eggs are destroyed they should splatter people with acidic goop blobs that slow movement, or instead release a swarm or something interesting.
I say keep the overmind and the reactor. It prevents base spamming by forcing you to protect a main base. Removing this would lead to a number of problems such as major egg spamming since each team would no longer require its “life source”
Egg spamming is still an issue currently even with the overmind as a requirement to build eggs. A possible solution to egg spam (whether or not the overmind requirement for building is removed), is a suggestion that @MachineMedic made awhile ago which is to turn the booster into a source of creep, not requiring creep for the booster to build/stay alive, and remove the creep providing aspects of the eggs, requiring exiting creep for the eggs to be built. Humans don’t have the problem of telenode spam since telenodes don’t serve the dual purpose of a power source and a spawn point.
I’m just saying that removal of the Overmind would lead to even bigger problems of egg spamming, since destroying the Overmind slows down the process of egg spamming.
If I may intervene here as well
My thoughts on most problems we are seeing appear in 1.3 is the lack of balancing since the beginning. (even since the first day of 1.1)
I am pretty sure that if we balance out things and add features that should have been added a long time ago (For example: bots a lot of bots commands were added already, but the system was never done at the beginning, (Thanks to sparky it has started back tho according to his post on X mod ^^ which I am more than happy to hear.))
But yea, balancing is the major issue. (It won’t fix every problems. But it will provide a solid foundation to then add more features that will possibly revive this game ^^.)
Okay… time for me to stop on the balancing issue, even if it’s the major issue, a lot of things needs some work for sure, but yea
We have been doing some balancing as we have progressed, but while we are still in the phase of adding major features balancing isn’t easy to do and extensive balancing is not our biggest priority yet, since each new major feature added can change the balance. Our top priority for the game play currently is to implement major planned features, evaluate/test those planned features, as well as consider/evaluate new ideas that may address issues and may fit well into the overall game play design. But after we finish this phase of implementing the major planned features, extensive balancing would definitely become our primary focus.
Can’t deny ^^
And I didn’t meant that this game needed balance as it wasn’t being done. But as with any game out there, balancing is always a huge thing that probably will never be done as the playerbase will never be happy. (Or at least a few, and it’s not bad, don’t worry I don’t blame them or try to insult them in any way or form. I’m just saying that generally people don’t like the same values being attributed to a lot of attributes or even some features in some cases.)