What are your thoughts about map remakes?


#1

Old thread archived due to NIGNOGS(TM), so we have to start from scratch.

Important: Remain calm and polite and try to be constructive while debating.

  • All remakes are good.
  • Pretty remakes are always better regardless of gameplay.
  • Good gameplay regardless of the graphics.
  • Both graphics and gameplay are very important.
  • Fuck all remakes.

0voters

  • Original gameplay must be totally preserved
  • Original gameplay can be altered but must remain very similar
  • The gameplay can be totally different if it is better
  • I like to lay on the ground and pretend I am carrot

0voters

Explain your vote, preferably.


Map release: ATCS Update
#2

I've always loved the old maps, Remaking them into new rendering, textures or shaders makes them more likely to be known again and I really like to see some young/old mappers make remakes.

Thx for bringing back that poll :wink:

EDIT:
For the Gameplay: Tremulous gameplay is great, but sometimes few changes might need to be applied.
Altering the Gameplay could bring something new to Tremulous. To make it simple, I'm open to changes as long as we don't go too far :wink:


#3

I think graphics and gameplay are the most important mainly because, the gameplay can't really make up for the graphics if they look like something out of the original Doom. In order to satisfy most players, the gameplay would have to be similar or equal to the original if they were to add a new feature or something. And finally, no, I do not like laying on the ground and pretending to be a carrot


#4

for me beautiful graphics doesn't matter. but graphic must be chosen correctly - the best example of it is atcs 2016 where the graphics (lights and contrast) destroyed the map. trem is not about graphics (there are thousands of better looking FPP) but about gameplay

regarding gameplay: if it's different than in original map then, in fact, it's a different map. and we can play both: the original and the new one

and i somehow agree with @Menace13 in that we should not be so excited about every remake and try to replace the original because of new graphics. new maps on the server should be:
- maps with new gameplay
- maps that fixes issues of the original (like underground building)


#5

Here's the grand answer we've all been waiting for:

It depends...


#6

I know EXACTLY what you mean! So many people these days haven't even heard of ATCS or Tremor, it's a great thing that Matth made brilliant remakes of them! /s

Real talk though, there aren't new players coming into the game, so everyone who plays already knows most of the old maps. Remaking them doesn't serve any purpose besides drawing in the praise of people who need to look at beautiful maps to feel good about themselves.

And, when there are so few people even mapping, it seems nonsensical for them to utterly waste their talent on remaking maps which we already have perfectly fine, playable versions of. Just make new maps, give us a new experience, not just a prettier version of the same old experience.

See, I actually disagree with this. If the players are already willing to play a game that is over a decade old, I don't think they care about graphics. I know I don't. Even in more modern games, such as CS:GO, I turn down the graphical settings for better FPS. I even turn down settings that don't improve my FPS if they improve visibility of players. I stand by my position that the people who care about graphics aren't playing a 10+ year old game that is based on the engine of a 15+ year old game.

For me, this is the biggest point. NOBODY who plays Trem nowadays plays it for the beautiful graphics. Even when it was released it had pretty shit graphics for its time. Improving the graphics of individual maps by a little bit won't change the fact that the models and blood and bullet holes all look like fucking shit compared to any modern game.

I definitely agree with this. I might not even classify UTCSUD as a "remake" of UTCS considering it has so many major additions to the map. It's more of a reconstruction of the map than a remake. The idea of a remake is that it stays true to the original. A good example of a remake that I haven't mentioned recently is atcs-2yb. The only major changes to the map are the holes in the bunker ceiling and wall; it stays true to the original but puts a fresh new taste on the looks and small changes to the gameplay (namely, making bunker bases worse).


#7

I think remaking maps is really better for our gameplay to change all of it with styles, but still have using old engine for making complicated and render high definition textures and more details of other graphics performance.

Since Matth was doing remake mappings, I really like his mappings 'cause that details is pretty realistic and partial like CS:GO rendered details, also some walls or something new brushes are really awesome! That means it's totally changed from old mappings. :wink:

From me, I didn't make it out because it's quite complicated and I have no idea what textures are for looking new details is, so Idk if Matth will help me to do better.

The most important as I have a problem, if it rendered mapping with high details and HD textures will making FPS laggy and GPU will going hot, so I hope remake mappings are not too powerful for those who players are using old PCs with low-grade graphics performance.


#8

wtf is a remake ?

for any distribution of (assignment of probability-weights to) maps (including the new map in the making), it is possible to make a new map that draws concepts from others based on the distribution. in other words, there is a map that is 1-third Niveus, 1-third straftrain, and 1-third new. there's also an infinite spectrum of possible features.

so the question, along with the current set of choosable poll answers doen't make sense. (one could change the question to something like: „what do u think about current [which ?] map remakes ?”. but then, the polls have to reflect that as well.)


#9

It's pretty hard to cover every possible thing you can make in maps in a poll, they are vague on purpose.


#10

WRONG. each poll is very concrete, and is missing the much-needed trailing „neither of the previous” option.


#11

It is most notably missing "Can the gameplay be worse/different and still be acceptable" and the variants. I supposed no one would play ATCS if it was regular ATCS turned to shit by making the halls long as fuck or w/e similar.


#13

Simple Definition of remake

: to make a new or different version of (something, such as a movie, song, etc.)

: to make (something) into something else

Tremor Remake is from scratch and doesn't inclute any content (brushes, entities etc) from the original map.
It only shares the same layout and its still a remake.


#14

transit was the first map ever i started to play trem on
i would like to see that shit


#15

I voted in favour of, if we as a community would like to see changes for the better, so be it. We thrive on good gameplay and enjoy ourselves in a good server.


#16

it doesn't take an idiot to understand that:

  • there's no such thing as the, but one's definition;
  • MaeJong has a history of failing to express his thoughts properly, increasing the likelihood of an unobvious definition in his mind, or what he means to imply with that;
  • MaeJong has just been battling recent, particular remakes, further increasing the likelihood of an unobvious definition in his mind, or what he means to imply with that;
  • ur basic definition makes the polls nonsensical (as i have noted — it also doesn't take an idiot to not ignore that);
  • u're WRONG.

well, if that thought allows u to sleep better after i post-pwned u many times...

oh it would be a very big surprize, because:

  • i only enjoy nonsense when joking.
  • the assertion that there's a prized shit mapper in GrangerHub is unheard of.
  • why would i come here to protect any mapper, when: this is a general thread about mapping, not about some person or what he/she does (is there any particular reason why u would think that there would be any discussion related to some mapper, ie., why do u have reason to believe that MaeJong would have some non-obvious thought behind his „what about map remakes ?” question ? — catch my drift ?).

by this logic (by which „one can draw, in some proportions, multiple features from multiple maps” implies that „any modification measures as full, and the original material measures as none”), 1 + 1 = 2 implies that there's a cheeezworm in ur ass. really, u have no fucking idea what u're talking about. (for clarification: (assuming we r thinking about the same ATCSHD) ATCSHD is hardly an „entirely different map” from ATCS; conceptually, geometrydesign-wise, gameplay-wise, etc. they're pretty much the same, but have a slightly different selection of textures.)

that's a fact, assuming that the last „it” refers to not the original map, but the value that is added (ie., a good map with a „slapped-on name” remains a good map, not a pile of shit; the „name” part is minor piece of shit).

considering that literally everyone else in this this entire thread knows (what the poll means, and) that the poll makes little sense,

u r the only one stupid enough to not know the difference between „complain” and „criticize”.

but to stay here and decry retards is the best way to combat retardation, not just among GH admins (ie., MaeJong), but every GHer.

that is vacuous, since i did not flag the post.


#17

The poll is only incomplete, the only thing not making sense is having to post an essay about it that no one gives a shit about.

If U want to write dissertations about why are my polls not making sense I suggest U make a new thread about it because this is going offtopic. (kek) (re:kek)


#18

Granted.

I disagree with this. I have never had trouble understanding MaeJong's thoughts when conversing whether in forums, on Skype, or in-game. Perhaps we should have a poll of community members to see if anyone else has this problem? If it could be determined that many community members had trouble understanding Mae's written thoughts, it would be helpful for him and the community if he knew that he should work on that. As it is, I have never heard this opinion from anyone but you.

I think it was understood that this poll is in reference to the argument in the recent "Remakes(TM)" thread which was split off from the "ATCS Update" thread, seeing as it was made just 6 hours later and since the recent remakes are the only remakes anyone has ever talked about on this forum to any major extent. In fact, in the first sentence, Mae even says "Old thread archived", explicitly stating that this is in reference to the same topic as the previous thread.

If you would like me to extrapolate on what the definition of a remake is, I could do so, but I think the majority of the people in this thread would prefer I don't turn this thread into an English lesson.

I apologize (somewhat) for insulting you in my previous post, but I find it mildly aggravating how you engage with others on this forum.

  1. You frequently tell others they are "WRONG" without giving valid explanations as to why, denying any possibility of there being a valid point or opinion in their statements.
  2. You treat the arguments on this forum as a game to "post-pwn" other people; when I argue with people it is in an attempt for them to understand my view point or to explain why I believe someone is wrong. I don't set out to "beat" other people in these arguments.
  3. You have been known to make statements which are entirely incomprehensible in arguments where being rational and pointing things out in a way that anyone can understand is highly important. I don't enjoy arguing with people who can't even speak or type proper English sentences.

I think the poll made complete sense except for the carrot option. Would you like if we held a poll asking the rest of the community members if they think the poll makes sense? I'd even let you write the poll, so it fits your standards.

I maintain that you are simply complaining, as "criticism" necessitates pointing out the problems and not just saying "that poll is WRONG".


Directly on topic:

You are correct, I was too hasty in defining a remake. I do agree that you can have remakes that don't directly take from the subject matter and instead copy the general ideas of that subject; in this case, copying the layout is akin to starting from the same base.

And again, I don't have problems with remakes in and of themselves, but I expect that remakes (of maps) would strive to solve the problems of the original. Otherwise, I don't see the point in making the remake in the first place, unless there is money to be made in doing so (e.g. Ocarina of Time 3D for the 3DS, Wind Waker HD for the Wii U, etc.), which there certainly isn't when it comes to Tremulous maps.


#19

The carrot option is a very important option in this poll, obviously, since it is the option you use to convey Ur feelings that there is a MISSING(TM) option.


#20

Any normal poll would just have an option that says "Other" and ask you to say what your opinion is in the thread.


#21

I think you simply don't understand how simply "Other" can't replace the carrot option. It is far more than an answer to this poll, it is very spiritual.