Why are the players who break rules the most immune?


#48

I’m done too… This thread is already over and shall be discontinued.


#49

Why would an open discussion thread be discontinued? This thread should stay open till sparky has discussed and incorporated a valid solution to the issue at hand.


#50

Even though @asbestos has not provided any evidence to back his claims, I have known for awhile that the L2 system in general has problems for two main reasons:

  1. We have had known instances where L2 players have actually violated the rules resulting in immediate removal of their L2 status.

  2. Additional effort and manual overhead is required from the administration to maintain this system, and even then it is not ideally enforceable.

For those two reasons a discussion about the L2 system is worth having.

However, I don’t have reason to believe that any particular current player with L2 can’t be trusted with L2, and I don’t know that any current L2 player has been violating rules as I have neither witnessed it myself nor have I seen any recent reports of such with sufficient verifiable supporting evidence.

An interesting proposal. However, how would that help the situation? Registration on the forums does not ensure that a player would not violate the rules. Members of the administration are required to be registered to the forums initially to submit an application and subsequently primarily for coordination and communication purposes. ( Ideally with future technical improvements an administration would not need supplemental website support to operate, and could operate entirely in-game).

It is important to keep in mind that players with L2 are not considered part of the administration, and are not required to follow the admin guidelines. Players with L2 are only required to follow the same game server rules as every other player is required to follow, however they are trusted to do so with vote immunity, and a consequence for not following the rules while possessing L2 is removal of L2 (besides also the same administrative consequences as any other player violating the rules may receive).

I’m not sure what your point is there.

I see some long term solutions and some short term solutions.

While the L2 system does have some inherent problems, it is still needed to address other existing problems in the current QVM on GrangerPub, otherwise we would have removed the L2 system awhile ago. So the long term solutions are technical improvements that make the L2 system obsolete (such as improvements to the voting system, and improvements to the admin system/tools).

The short term solutions I see are as follows:

  • refinement in our protocols for issuing, handling, and removing L2, as well as improvement in the communication of those protocols.

  • both players and admins properly reporting incidents of L2 violations to L9+ admins.

Suggestions of additional solutions are encouraged.

For at least the short term, you can’t expect problems of specific L2 players violating the rules (or for that matter a/some specific member(s) of the administration (L3+) violating rules and/or abusing their position) to be resolved if the administration remains unaware of the those problems and no one reports those problems.


#51

I almost forgot that there is a third problem with the L2 vote immunity system.

  1. Many people do get perturbed to varying extents if they call a vote on someone with vote immunity only to see that they can’t call a vote on that individual, even if the vote caller didn’t have good reason to call a vote.

#52

[quote=dGr8LookinSparky][quote=asbestos]
Anyone can register yet admins still have the ability of ip checking to confirm if someone is who they claim to be.
[/quote]
I’m not sure what your point is there.
[/quote]

I think he talks about us being able to verify some identity with IP’s. The problem with IP’s, is that it’s kinda easy to change and yet might not be a good and efficient way to confirm someone’s identity. (like pretty much dynamic ip’s would be a hell of work to find if someone’s yet the real player ^^)

Don’t forget that few people were being spammed with vote kicks because some player thought they were hacking while they were just being skilled. ^^

But yea… I’d maybe have an idea for those immunities and suchs.
Have a log record every single vote being done on immunes. We’d then see the reasons and suchs. If an admin isn’t already there, we could then manually add the ban/kick/demotion.
(even those votes that can’t be thrown because of the immunity. ^^)


#53

if it’s possible for desala i’m sure it is possible for anyone. Desala is the only player I know who would go to such lengths to avoid being caught yet gets caught everytime, I don’t think someone would be difficult over a simple check if someone who claims to be someone on the server is actually them.

You also need to stop restating stuff that others have already posted


#54

Yeah, but what does that have to do with L2?


#55

he said that incase some were sharing accounts/names and suchs. But yea, I do agree with you ^^


#56

couple of questions:

  1. What is your in game name? i have never seen anyone by the name asbestos on the server and i consider myself very active ingame. Sorry if you’ve already stated this before, i couldn’t find it anywhere.
  2. What rules are these immune players breaking? Please be specific, your first post only states that they are “constantly breaking rules” but not which specific rules they’re breaking.
  3. Saying 45% of issues are caused by people we trust / are part of our admin team is a pretty bold statement, do you have anything to proof that statistic or should we just believe you?
    4.[quote=“asbestos, post:44, topic:2776”]
    I’m not supplying any proofs to this thread as this thread was not made to chuck individuals under the bus
    [/quote]
    How noble of you not to start a witchhunt, but some names or screenshots would be nice, surely you understand that it isn’t an easy task to figure out which L2’s don’t deserve their level without an actual accusation towards anyone.
  4. [quote=“asbestos, post:17, topic:2776”]
    If this thread wasn’t based on my personal observations I would’ve listed witnesses and provided proof.
    [/quote]
    We obviously take personal observations very seriously. Witnesses, preferably other L1’s who also have personal observations, would be great as well. A screenshot or log isn’t really needed, neither is a name, sure makes our job easier if we don’t have to look at any evidence.
  5. [quote=“asbestos, post:19, topic:2776”]
    Once again this is only me stating my observations and it doesn’t matter if I have verifiable evidence to support my claim as it is MY claim.
    [/quote]
    I definitely agree, we should put our trust in claims even though there’s no actual proof supporting said claim. The fact that you put time into this thread is proof on it’s own that your claim is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I think it’s preposterous that none of our admins are on in the middle of the night to make sure the one and a half people playing at that time have a perfect experience, how dare we not give up our night’s rest.

#57

You are being sarcastic, but any issue in general at any time on the game server is still an issue that needs to be addressed.


#61

I will restate, and say this again

Actually I am on until mostly GrangerHub servers are completely empty (mostly on weekends), and I’ve stayed up till 1-2AM when I need to get up early at 7:22 to 7:15 (ranges through there) which means from the time I get on to the time I leave GrangerHub servers are completely being watched. I will of course have breaks from times to times but sometimes they are very little. Although this may seem like a hardcore, and enduring action I do for GrangerHub, in some states servers will not be fully watched as for week days it will be too demanding for me to stay up 24/7.

If I felt like it I can set up a demo that demo’s my in-game actions and what I do for the entire day and time laps it but i’m sure there’s proof floating around there somewhere.

About Level 2’s being a big issue or problem in your eyes @asbestos my time, and experience on GrangerHub I have still yet to see one person who breaks this, I have seen people try to kick them but it was all for either:

1 ) Invalid reasons
2 ) Rage, spite or trolling
3 ) Attempt random vote kick


#62

As of the statistiques, I’ve logged in few times this week-end and a bit last week’s nights to see if the 45% was worth being trusted. And yet I can tell it’s not. (I’m online right now as I am writting this. You can ask Sex and Pro Noob if you don’t trust me. Or check logs. Right now where I live it’s 03:07 am (UTC -5))

Anyway. The first reason I say the 45% isn’t valid is first of:
In all the times I’ve logged in the past days nights, I never saw asbestos log in. (which would be a proof of some self observations or information gathering.)
The second reason is that after login in (once again…) I’ve yet to see any level2+ abuse their immune/rank.
Basically it means that I saw no rules being broken from our level 2’s and higher.


#63

You obviously don’t know who I am and literally no admin plays during the times I’m referring to. Especially not you helper bot you are never on in these times. I doubt you saw enough rule breaking through the course of these past nights to say a claim of 45% is wrong.


#64

Then please, tell us who you are. Everything you post is a goddamn riddle, everything’s so vague…
YOU, not US, need to provide proof of your 45% claim. We don’t have to disprove anything before you actually have proof instead of your dreaded “personal observations” Please answer questions 1 to 3 i asked in post 49.


#65

Its kendo aka maebong…


#66

That’s an arbitrary number. While I do think some players that have level 2, shouldn’t, it’s a matter much greater than something that can be fixed in this forum post. I do think we should make a post about this in the admin section(which I will get to eventually).

You’re maebong


#67

You say this, yet des-allah (the one whose works we cannae speak) exists. There is also Sterminator, but at least he’s classifiable as human.


#68

Why can’t we just have set flag for immunity than lvl 2s getting it?

I still see no worthwhile purpose for lvl 2s being vote immune. I don’t mind having my immunity removed either.


#69

In my opinion the level 2 immunity, ETC is a hard dual sided scale. It helps against vote abusers, but it can be abused.

It helps keeps players protected, but then again it can be abused. Although getting screen shots, any proof of these immune abuses. @enneract would be very helpful, an PM with a administrator and we can see how bad it is, and how we can approach stopping it. :slight_smile:


#70

Literally the only difference between Level 1 and Level 2, besides the number, is vote immunity. L2 isn’t even considered part of the administration.

Two things to take into consideration though:

  • as with every other member of the administration (Level 3 and above), you have the abilitity to cancel votes, but L2 and below can’t.

  • are votes called against you nearly as often as rule abiding L2 players in general?