[WIP]We need a Kamikaze alien for 1.3

Grenades 101:

4 Likes

What if the alien did a negligible amount of damage and instead applied an effect that marks structures as vulnerable, and attacks against vulnerable targets does bonus damage?
That would deal with the issue of random players spamming the class in order to cause massive damage, and also encourages teamplay with devastating results.

Example: If the vulnerable effect causes other aliens to do 150% damage to the target, an alien that normally does 50 damage would do 75 instead because 50 times 1.5 is 75

4 Likes

That’s how you get admin in Der Bunker.

This is a cool idea, though could the really spam the class to do massive amounts of damage work? Given evolving into a suicide dretch, etc would cost evos (I hope), it’d be the same as not being able to spam grenades constantly, however they still have an impact.

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The bonus damage won’t stack.

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I like the bonus damage to vulnerable structures, to an extent. What exactly would trigger the vulnerable effect? Distance from main structure location? (Like 50 turrets near the reactor, one is off somewhere defending a door or something while remaining in the reactor range, but has the effect) Powered by a repeater? (Away from main base, such as a vulnerable mini-base) Or just a structure that is X units away from the reactor, where all of the turrets would be away from the reactor, making them all vulnerable structures? If it would be triggered by the last 2, I’d highly suggest either:

A: Improvement on the structures themselves

B: Reducing the bonus damage from 50% to perhaps, 15-25%

C: Giving structures marked “vulnerable” a damage buff.

D: Increased structure range

Aliens don’t need that much of a damage buff to vulnerable structures, I see structures that are away from the reactor more as supporting front lines, causing the structures to take more damage would then discourage the idea of building a forward, as it could easily get destroyed.

4 Likes

Miscommunication, I meant to say that the suicidal alien applies a debuff to structures, and if other aliens attacked a structure marked by the suicudal alien’s effect, that structure takes % bonus damage.

50% was just an example value, I pretty much agree it’s sort of unfair too.

The best solution would be to say that there would be a limited number of times you could stack the structure vulnerability using the explosive alien.

Overall I’m not sure if it should be implemented as a debuff that lasts X seconds and causes the bonus damage whenever target structure is damaged while the debuff is active on it or a mark that lasts X seconds and is consumed when another alien performs a successful attack, dealing the bonus damage.

4 Likes

Perhaps stacking the effect could be an option, although here would be an idea if it was the case:

Lets say the effect lasts 20 seconds, I would then immediately try to think of a way to balance stacking, so it’s not overpowered (placing an egg near the base, then always rushing to the structure to give it additional debuffs). My first thought is that since the first effect lasts 20 seconds, the next one could then last 10, then 5, then 2.5, then 1.25, then 0.625, so on… therefore it could still stack, it would just cancel out the additional stacks faster.

5 Likes

What about something called “Diminishing Returns?”

Or we could just do it without stacking, or make it a minimal amount per stack. Or perhaps, at first the vulnerability stacks barely do anything, but the more you stack on, the more damage it deals and when you get several stacks (5+) on it make it deal massive damage? Remember we’re probably going to make this alien pretty frail and not explode if it gets shot down on the way.

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Stacking is an appealing option, but it could be too potent. It seems to me that testing the kamakaze variants might tell us something how it plays as a feature in the current set up.

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After recent testing, I find no use for a kamikaze alien, or an alien that deducts armor on anything. All of the human structures aim for the bottom middle of an alien, if the very bottom of an alien is behind cover, it then becomes unable to attack the alien. Adding something such as a damage bonus or a bomb would add to the problem with current structures.

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An interesting observation…

That may change with future updates. For example, I’m looking into using capsules/spheres as replacements to some of the buildables’ bboxes. That may make it more difficult to attack those buildables from behind cover. We may change how current offensive buildables attack, maybe finding some way for them to attack players when they are visible instead of only when their origin is visible. We may add more buildables that could change the dynamic, and/or any other number of changes to the buildable system and/or any other system may change the dynamiz significantly.

With that said, could a Kamikaze alien be useful in combat against human players, and not just against human bases?

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the original reason I suggested this was because while machinegun humans are still mildly useful at mid-lategame dretches are near useless. This can lead to being able to do nothing if you’re alien with no evos.

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Some things to considert that are different at the moment in the swirl game mode:

  • Dretches can damage any human buildable (including the reactor).

  • Dretches have 38 hp (although they are limited on how much they can heal: The New Heath Degrading System).

  • Dretches have pounce (for movement purposes, the pounce itself doesn’t do damage, damage is still entirely from the bite).

  • There is a gradual timed income system, where you constantly get fractional evos (so you don’t have to wait the couple minutes to get any timed evos).

  • Income is given from team buildables killing enemy players.

  • Income is given from killing enemy buildables.

  • Some of the income from killing enemy players is given to the enemy team.

With that said, I still think that a kamikaze alien done the right way could add a lot to the game play, and if someone were to make the assets (the model, etc) for such a new alien class, I would definitely code an implementation for us to try.

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No, I don’t recommend it being used against humans either, with a human already dying in 2 hits from nearly every alien (same with aliens -> humans) I personally don’t think it would be a good idea. Adding this may result in alien priority, where aliens would win all due to a hit ratio. Humans would then be practically useless in survival, so much that armor and helmets would no longer effect lifespan. If you are going to add something that increases damage dealt, make it only effective against battlesuits, since their already highly armored and a rant can’t kill one regularly.

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I think humans do have an advantage that aliens do not have.

  • humans have a (somewhat) effective nade, which can be used in a kamikaze style
  • human blaster and rifle can whittle down structures from a distance and take no damage
  • alien dretch cannot do damage to turrets very well without taking excessive damage
  • aliens have very few units that can whittle down human structures

The only aliens you can sort of use to whittle down an alien base would be:

  • advanced marauder, and it still takes some damage and its spark takes awhile to do damage to groups of turrets, while the marauder still takes damage
  • advanced dragoon, its barbs take a long time to refill, it makes more sense just to pick off lone humans or lone turrets
  • arguably the spitfire can harass buildings but is pretty weak
  • one could argue the advanced basilisk could do damage to base structures, but upon de-cloking it will get killed pretty fast by rets

Humans can whittle down tubes and other structures from a distance with blaster and rifle. Humans can run in in groups with nades and or lucy cannons and absolutely decimate an OM. Even if they die in the process they can do massive damage. Humans frequently do run in packs on suicide missions to wreck the alien base. Aliens do not have the same ability to effectively harass the human base without loosing many evos in the process.

In short I think we will want a well done kamikaze alien, one that is balanced. The kamikaze alien does not have to be super powerful. A kamikaze alien does not have to totally wreck the base either.

One example would be an acidic gel ball bug:

  • The ball bug could cost about 4 evos
  • The ball bug detonation area has a wide area of effect
  • Acidic gel blobs spew out in every direction temporarily slowing structures and units that are hit by it or walk through it. (perhaps five to ten seconds)
  • The acidic gel could do about 100 damage slowly over the ten seconds. Humans with armor or medkits should survive it easily.
  • Structure repair would reduce the acids damage as its slowly healing during the damage process.
  • The key advantage for the aliens is that the structures heal back a little less each time, and the humans cant immediately assault because they need to defend, heal, repair, and wait the five or ten seconds for full mobility.
  • Blobs of acid would mostly effect the feet, so damage modifier favors humans.

This is a rough concept, the damage amount could be adjusted, as could the secondary movement reduction.

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Why not just have an alien do that with a bomb, but doesn’t regenerate health and can only be recharged via booster? (Limited recharges).

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That could be an option also I suppose. Great idea :+1:

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We now have an initial Kamikaze attack implemented for the basic marauder. Holding the secondary attack charges up for the explosion. You explode either when you reach max charge, or if and when you dies earlier while still charged. The intensity of the explosion (which effects the overall damage and range) is proportional to how much charge you have. There are some vibration effects and pain effects for indicating feedback for the charge. Currently the explosion is a simple splash damage that aliens are immune to.

This update is available on both the GrangerLab server and on the Unitremia server.

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Update: The Basic Marauder’s explosion now gives off an electrical attack. Going above 2/3 of its maximum charge meter now causes the Marauder to take 47 damage per second. Being fully charged does not automatically detonate, but instead detonates through outside sources or the auto-damage. Biting while fully charged is not available at the moment.

This update is available on both the GrangerLab server and on the Unitremia server.

3 Likes

Since the spitfire has it’s flammable gas trail third attack, that can swoop into the alien base doing damage, and have a chance to make it out alive (although not always), that has mostly served the role of a kamikaze alien, and the basic mara kamikaze secondary attack is hardly used anymore, I removed that kamikaze attack from the basic mara. Not to mention it was annoying to new players when they tried that secondary and didn’t expect to immediately die.

I should add that at some point we plan on adding an acid attack to the rant (or add an adv rant with that attack and more hp), which would leave a pool of acid that would do damage over time to enemy players and buildables standing in the pool (the pool would “evaporate” after a period of time).

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